http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/10/us/study-finds-that-the-number-of-protestant-americans-is-declining.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20121010
What questions do you have about Christianity, human nature, death & dying? Specifically about Catholic beliefs? About Protestant beliefs? Remember that there are many strands within Protestant Christianity!
Fr. Twaddell will come to our class this week, 3 October, to answer your questions from a Catholic perspective.
Some other resources:
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/
- A Luthern perspective on death & dying: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lcms.org%2FDocument.fdoc%3Fsrc%3Dlcm%26id%3D678&ei=1JFpUN_4HeLk0QHesYHQCA&usg=AFQjCNFVRDlM_KJe-MFdh5CO1P-RYFXY7Q&sig2=FzhXw30_PYP5dnvbETCenQ
I am very curious as to why the Bible would be called "fiction" by anyone other than an atheist. I am not trying to start a huge argument, I would just like to know the reasoning behind it and some educational reasons why this would be said.
ReplyDeleteDr. Cate, could you possibly comment on this from a philosophical standpoint as to why some people might say this.
Reading the bible is a good place to start. A lot of people have not read it in its entirety, there is a lot more in there than the few readings they do in church each week. It is a fascinating read with many different styles and aspects of writing from so many sources, not all of the bible is straight forward and clear cut, some parts don't even make sense with other parts. Song of Songs/Song of Solomon for instance.
DeleteI understand that Christianity is a relationship with God, but what makes Christianity so unique? Or is it not unique, is it just another path to seeking Truth?
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian, but I'm a Baptist. I'm not Catholic or Protestant so I don't really know anything about Catholic or Protestant beliefs. However, I do know that Baptists and Catholics view salvation differently. Catholics believe that God grants salvation based on faith, works and participation in the Holy Sacraments, like Communion and penance. Baptists, on the other hand, we believe that God gives salvation to anyone who has faith in him.
I am also interested in the answer to Jeramie's question above.
The bible is a guide with many sections of writing from many different sources, some with secondary proof, some with no support what so ever. "Fiction" in retrospect was probably not the right word to use. However, I stand by my statement that not all of the bible is truth, as matter of fact large portions of it are stories written/told with the express purpose of teaching a lesson ie parables. These kinds of things are in the bible so that the followers of Christ could equate the lesson he was trying to give to tangible things in their daily lives. That is just one example from the New Testament. The Old Testament is even harder to take as fact because it is filled with everything from romantic even erotic poetry and songs, stories of prophecy,demons and pagan practices, and lists of rules for every aspect of life. For instance the plagues that Moses calls down on Pharaoh, these have been hotly debated as miracles or natural occurrences for decades. The idea that God created the world in 7 days( a time constant that philosophy would say is for human understanding), Jonah and the whale, Joshua and the battle of Jericho? The point of the bible isn't to tell you that if a wall stands in the way of something you want you circle it seven times blowing a horn and it will be yours, that is not the point, the point of the bible is that Joshua had enough faith that God would deliver Jericho to the Israelites, that Jonah had faith that God would save him from the whale, which is why I have faith that even though the words in the Bible are not facts of true events necessarily, They are facts of faith that I believe in. There are facts in the bible that I would never contradict, Jesus Christ was born the son of God, and he suffered and Died for our sins. I believe that is fact. I am not and will not ever be an atheist. I hope this clarifies my reasoning behind my statement in class. The beauty of the bible is in the faith it takes to believe in some things that have no proof. I believe.
ReplyDeleteThank you very much. I see exactly your point referring to the parables and the story of Joshua and the battle of Jericho. I do believe that "fiction" was the wrong terminology used, but clarifying exactly what you meant has made your point very clear on where you stand. I also like the part about faith, and how you use the stories as a foundation for faith and what it can do.
DeleteSo, a few comments:
ReplyDelete* There are two main branches of Christianity: Catholicism and Protestantism. Until Henry VIII broke away from Rome, there was only one Christian church, but since then there are many more. So, if you are a Christian, but are not Catholic, by default you are Protestant. Protestants include Presbyterians, Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Mormons, and many independent Christian churches.
* Some Christians believe that the Bible is literally true; others, notably Catholics and many mainstream Christians do not believe the Bible is literally true. That still means that it is sacred, important, and divinely-inspired.
* Fictitious does NOT mean false.
* Many Christians believe that the Bible is a source of truth without itself being completely true. Usually we mean that it reveals an important moral lesson without necessarily being historically true. Beth did a reasonably good job of explaining this is her post above.
* Some atheists and agnostics might still appreciate the sacred texts of the world's religions without believing that the texts are divinely inspired. So even if someone said that the Bible is fictitious, as long as the person was being respectful, it is possible that the person still acknowledges that there are important lessons to be learned from the text. I expect you understand this vis a vis your view of other religions' sacred texts. Would you say that the Qur'an is fictitious? Would you say that there are some important lessons to be learned from it? You might not have every seen or read from one, so I'll bring you a copy of the Qur'an on Weds. I'll also bring you a book from the Dalai Lama as well as the Tao Te Ching.
* Atheists and agnostics often struggle with the same questions about meaning of and purpose for life, even if they don't answer them by reference to a religious system.
* Some people of faith believe that there are many paths to God/truth. Others believe that there is only one way (theirs). Some Christians are like this (you must believe in Jesus to go to heaven) and some Muslims are like this. Catholics are not taught this now, nor so many Protestants believe this. I think there are some/many? Muslims who also believe there are many paths to truth/God, but I don't have any numbers to back that up.
I want to know more about the Catholic church's stance on suicide (sorry, just wrote a big paper on it for another class). I understand that it is looked upon as a sin. What is the basis for this? Was it a spiritual reason (life is sacred) or a more practical reason (if its sinful, less people will kill themselves)? And is it still considered sinful in this day and age, where mental health sciences are starting to dig deeper and gain more understanding concerning mental dysfunction (depressed neurotransmitter release, the influence of medicinal/street drugs, concurrant mental health disorders that may make an individual more vulnerable to committing suicide) and its link to suicide?
ReplyDeleteI am Protestant. I was raised as a Southern Baptist, but today I would say that I am not really associated with any particular denomination. So, I do not really have any questions about Protestantism.
ReplyDeleteCatholicism is what really intrigues me. My mom's boyfriend's family is Catholic, so I started attending mass and Catholic weddings and funerals about 6 years ago. And, obviously, I go to a Catholic college. However, I feel like I am pretty uneducated about it. Every time I go to mass, I am always so confused. I would like to know more about Catholic traditions and why they are practiced.
P.S. I really appreciate Dr. Cate's and Elizabeth's comments. They definitely cleared things up, at least for me!
Personally I don't understand all the need for different denominations of Christianity. The basis for belief is the Bible. Why does mankind find it necessary to humanize it and put their spin on the writing? I don't believe that when Jesus/God inspired the authors of the Bible to pen the moral teachings that He planned on man using it to create divisions among His followers. I think this only muddies the water and detracts from the real lessons of living and salvation laid out in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Mary Kay's question of why there are different dominations of Christianity, is because people have the free will and right to think and believe what they want. The different forms of Christianity, for example Lutherism, was formed because Martin Luther did not beleive in what the Catholic church was doing at the time. This is how many forms of Christianity are started, and why the fact that most of these forms of Christianity have a lot of similarities between them. They all beleive in the basis of the Bible, but they have different forms of interpreting the readings and carrying out the masses.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed hearing Fr. Twaddell speak on Wednesday. He had some interesting things to say concerning the spiritual essence acquired by the body versus the seperate soul theory. He also was enlghtening on the place of the intellectual human versus the rest of the timeline to reach God. Caltholic acceptance of other religious views has come a long way since I was in a private high school back in the early 80"s. I was particularly intrigued when he said to study other religious beliefs if that is your pursuit of truth in that you might find that they are really not that different. After reading chapter 6 of Barry, I was reaching that same conclusion myself. Using Christianity as the base, I realized that Judiaism has a resurrection belief as well as the immortality of the soul. Islamics believe in resurrection as well as a day of judgement and that life on earth is a determinant for a person's eternal future. Hinduism believes also that the determination of one's destination after death is the actions or deeds in life. These are but surface facts without delving into the meat and bones of each religion. I would think that more similarites are present. When paging through the Koran that was passed in class, it had many similiar passages that reminded me of Biblical passages. So with all this being said, aren't we all studying and basically believing pretty much the same thing interpreted differently by man?
ReplyDeleteYour closing question really struck a chord with me. Having grown up Roman Catholic, I eventually came to the point that I started to question what I was so dogmatically believing in. I'm still not 100% sure what I believe in but the same conclusion that you drew also came to my mind. I believe that the largest of the world's religions share the same common root - the interpretation of the details are the only things that change (in my opinion at least).
DeleteHearing from Father Twaddell was rather refreshing. He was very open-minded and I think that is a great attribute for a priest. I tended to agree with his belief in the Bible seeing some things as metaphorical and historical. I believe in God but not completely in the Bible word for word because it was written by men and can be swayed in one way or another due to human interpretation.
ReplyDeleteI loved our conversation with Fr. Twaddell. Granted, I don't agree with him on most of the aspects but it's obvious that he has put a lot of thought and effort in his theology and making it gel with his philosophy. Anyone who thinks about the things he believes rather than accepting them blindly has my respect. I especially enjoyed his theory of time and space being a creature, with a definitive beginning and eventually a definitive end. It has no legitimate scientific backing as of yet, but it is certainly fun to think about. My father is a alumni of Thomas More and he still remembers Fr.Twaddell and his beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI also enjoyed Father Twaddell's speech. He had a great deal of knowledge on various religions and sciences. I liked how he was able to make theology and physical sciences fit together. I myself was raised Catholic but do not believe in everything that the bible says. I feel that way because it was written by man and can be interpreted in their own way. I do believe in God and that the best way to receive salvation is to live by the golden rule. Living by the golden rule is the most important way of living in my opinion. I started having doubts in Catholicism when my parents got divorced and were criticized for it. I viewed Catholicism as being overly judgmental in unfair ways for the longest time after that. But I admit now that hearing Father Twaddell speak today made me have a more open mind towards Catholicism again and made me realize that there are so many people out there and the ones that criticized my parents are only a small percent compared to the ones who are probably as understanding and as open minded as Fr. Twaddell is.
ReplyDelete